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Butai

Why Do New Players Quit?

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There are many people who are devoted to this game, but something I've noticed is we mainly rely on people with multiple accounts to hit a certain threshold of players. One of the main programmers boasts about 200 active players or something along those lines, but I think something revealed in this thread that there are many people with over 10 alternate accounts. (I am also one of them) but this makes me realize that the player base is actually quite a lot smaller than at first glance. Any game will have player retention problems, but why do so many new players quit the game so early? I will outline the biggest problem my friends, and others, lost interest in the game over.

The first aspect was battle injuries. A couple of months ago, it was stated that the reason they implemented battle injuries was because you don't lose items when you die, or money. However, this is no longer the case. We now have rare items in the game that are dropped upon death. We also have several other items, scrolls for missions, dango, etc that will drop when killed. This will delay certain missions for 8 minutes. But this highlights the biggest problem with the game. Battle injuries. An archaic system that has been around for ages. The only reason they do not change it is entirely due to lazy programming. They have shot any great suggestion down because "X is in the game" however, when X changed, Battle Injuries remain the same. Therefore we cannot maintain a healthy new player base.  Battle injuries are a stalling mechanic at lower levels. It prevents gameplay in most cases, it prevents world travel, and it prevents progress. One of the first things that happens to a player is that they are killed by an NPC if they want to get to genin rank. Meaning fresh out of the academy we reduce their damage and health. 

There is a reason this system does not exist in any other MMORPGs. It's a bad mechanic, it has always been a bad mechanic. For a PVP centric game, this is one of the largest mistakes. Imagine if you got killed in Call of Duty, you had less health after respawning and your gun did 30% less damage. But even if we can deconstruct this mechanic for what it takes away, we should also question what it adds to the game.

 

The simple response is absolutely nothing. The main defense behind battle injuries is that it will promote roleplaying. This is never the case. New players want to train and get new jutsu. We do not reward them for roleplaying until RP missions are available. But you understand that we prevent them from getting to RP missions. We punish them for getting one shot by a level 50 in a safe zone. We punish them for traveling to a mission that has aggro mobs. We punish them for playing the game as it was intended. It is a harassing world, but we cannot harass new players out of the box.

I suggest that we remove Battle Injuries entirely from the game as they add nothing to the game. Many people have concerns about raids being harder, to which I say, don't be a pussy and learn how to raid properly. Not only will this increase the defense of raids, but will also increase the occurrence of raids. The removal of battle injuries will be beneficial for high level players.

After a failed raid, most high level players will meet at the typical spot while they wait their 8 minutes out. By the time that all of their allies heal, they will no longer be interested in raiding. With the removal of battle injuries, old players will become a lot more active as the game becomes more interesting. No longer will people be AFK at town squares or outside of gates. Battle injuries serve no other purpose but to waste your time. The mechanic was always a half-cooked idea and has only stayed in the game because of developer excuses. If the purpose of Nin Online is to waste the player's time because they were not level 50 out of the academy, this is not a game I'm interested in. If the purpose of Nin Online is to waste veteran player's time, this is not a game I'm interested in.

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Yeah no, battle injuries is most definitely not the problem it’s probably just the fact when you start off the game you’re forced to punch npcs like larva’s for so long which is boring

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12 minutes ago, Ichika said:

Yeah no, battle injuries is most definitely not the problem it’s probably just the fact when you start off the game you’re forced to punch npcs like larva’s for so long which is boring

I agree. While the BI is definently an annoying feature, especially at lower levels, I don't think that it is the main reason why some people quit.

This has been adressed and discussed many times in the past, for some the leveling process is too difficult or boring. For some there is not enough early level content.

Then there is the obvious PK threat to lower levels, some missions are quite dangerous I must say for lower levels, sometimes even I die more than once in a row while trying complete a mission and it can affect me in a negative way.

Some don't like the way the game works or how difficult it might be to get scrolls for jutsus at early levels, the game is grindy and not everyone wants that. If you look at byond naruto games, for the most part its afk training, really easy to level up and obtain jutsus. In comparison to that Nin is difficult and not for everyone.

But in reality, people still play the game and make as you say 10 alts and keep playing on and on, myself included. I like how most stuff is and how difficult it sometimes can be and some people just dont.

Also I bet, the devs look at the IP's accounts were created to make a - active player list - 

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Alrighty so as someone who just recently tried the game (and I'm still giving it a fair shake in my downtime) I think there's a few factors.

The biggest issue is this game's disregard for the value of the Player's time. It's present in nearly every aspect of the game. Battle Injuries, the Boat Ride to Asoki, the Tutorial Quiz, Health Regen etc etc etc.

There seems to be some conflicting design themes going on in Nin. Especially for the early game. It's a game that encourages heavy idling, but also punishes you for it. I'ma run a few scenarios I've gone through:

Early game, you don't have Ryo to waste on those Blood Pills, so when your health is low due to grinding, you idle on the map, waiting for it to regen. There's just no other option. So you'll alt tab to google or youtube, and when you come back after 2 minutes, you've been killed via PvP. Now you have to wait for Battle Injuries to wear off to properly start the grind again. Now your health is even lower, so you idle more because you need to Regen more. Then you get killed again. It's a supremely frustrating situation with the only solution being to keep the game at the forefront of your focus. You know what's not fun? Staring at Nin while nothing is happening, waiting 5 minutes for your health to regen.

The tutorial is also bat-shit insane in how it forces to to take nearly the entire quiz over again if you get one wrong answer. To add salt to the wound there's actual trick questions in that quiz. This should be the most engaging part of the entire game, to lock players in, but I nearly quit right then and there.

The Boat Ride. Oh my god. Why is this in here? It just wastes my time! I'd get if it was just a minute on the sea, but it stretches on and on. In trying to make the world itself appear/feel larger, it bogs down the entire game with yet more of it's most damning hindrances.

 

Now it should be noted that upon hitting Level 10, it's not as bad as the super early game was. There are still needless time wasters though. While I think a mission to idle in the spa for a bit is a really nice touch, it's a little much when the entire early game is built on these conflicting design points. Nin seems to want you to be engaged for combat and PvP, but constantly asks you to also sit back and watch nothing happen for 5 minutes at a time every 10 minutes.

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3 minutes ago, SkywardRiver said:

The biggest  issue is this game's disregard for the value of the Player's time. 

Say it again for those in the back.

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31 minutes ago, Melfina said:
34 minutes ago, SkywardRiver said:

The biggest  issue is this game's disregard for the value of the Player's time. 

Say it again for those in the back

LOUDEEEEEEERRR

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Well actually you're meant to level up in a group... I remember I started off with a group of friends. I leveled up to like level 20 with them. If you're leveling with a group of friends that you're cool with, you probably won't quit the game early. It's a very grindy game but its more bearable when you have friends to play with.

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well let see a toxic community  , no real story , nobody helping you ,bi is one fof the reason too , unbalance classes , no pve or pvp sistem  ... i can go on many reason why ppl leave, when i start  the game i nthe same mounth form 23 player only 4 are left  that play.

 

 

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I think that one of the biggest problems is the toxic players and the xenophobia that exists in the villages when we see new players, we all think "It's another Alt"
And we don't welcome the new players as they should be. I include myself in this

The favoritism of old players over new ones

BI is annoying, I would like you to do a test for a while where they take it away to see what it would be like, but I must say that BI motivates you not to want to die and you try to avoid it at all costs

Maybe the Alt problem changes when they add a maximum lv to lv100
Or maybe a way to design accounts where you can choose which Pj you want to use
An example of this would be
I enter my Jero account and it gives me the option to choose what I want to be, the fire, the wm, the medic etc.
And each of these pj has its different level, outfits and looks

But let each person in the game see that it's me, just using a different pj

Basically, one account per PC but in your account you can have barios Pj having your same name

Finally, we may be the problem ourselves, since we are never satisfied and we always want more, it is the nature of the human being.
Before changing the world, try to change your

 

Peace

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Many people I brought to this game quit before hitting lvl 50 due to the frustrating and RNG based Daily Mission System.

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14 minutes ago, VipeRz said:

Many people I brought to this game quit before hitting lvl 50 due to the frustrating and RNG based Daily Mission System.

This is also a good point, maybe we should be able to do many more missions on the day, this is what gives meaning to the life of a ninja, the missions

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I will answer shortly to the title.

The quitters surrender to the harass quickly. Which means they are not strong enough to deal with the harsh world.

Cheers! As Madara said, "The world belong to  the winners only"

Edit: Im suffering to see u explain yourself too hard in this shit post u are nerdy like them i will point my harass on u so u going to end your ninja career like them cheers.

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hey guys its me yes, today tutorial on how to fix two problems with one change:

change bi to a "you can't pvp" debuff so it fixes people just rushing with bi to protect villages (which would be much worse without bi) and reduce the cooldown to 2-3min so it doesnt affects low players experiences with grinding, and would still be a reasonable time to wait to attack (maybe 1,5min)

Thank you for coming to my ted talk!

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I'd say the same thing as Skyward. Why would anyone want to spend 5 minutes on a boat ride just because? Grinding for days for not even a single level achieved just because? Farming bosses that one shot you, that people will camp and kill you at, that you can't go fight on Bi, that even if you killed for the 1000th time over a week of complete no lifing you won't get any reward because the drop is .00001% and no small amount of ryo is given in compensation of effort...

I'd also say the same thing as Jero. There is no respect among players. The game can heavily be rigged by spies which outcasts new players. Mods don't enforce rules equally or enforce half heatedly at times. There have been cases when your best friend did one small thing and get banned while another player has gotten away with selling acc's and exploiting cheats that benefit whole raid parties. 

I'd also add that Rory has started to destroy the chances of new players even further recently. He added tiers in this game. There are regulars players, there are ANBU, and then there are special orgs. The buff range further and further moves away from the lowbies power level. This makes lower levels incapable of doing legit anything. Additionally, there will be a level increase with even harder grinding pushing the gap from lowbie to a max player even further past the already spent limit. Then advanced will come into play...

All in all, everyday regular level 50 players are already being pushed aside, trashed, given a disadvantage...what makes you think a new level 1 has a chance? Leveling takes literally months unless you no life an entire week and a half with full blessings  (if you don't get spam killed). Rory says often that we should be grateful of game content when it comes out because it takes a lot of time, but doesn't consider the player bases time and dedication to the game which requires a ridiculous amount of time to do anything. It's a game. 

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1 minute ago, Seifer said:

I'd say the same thing as Skyward. Why would anyone want to spend 5 minutes on a boat ride just because? Grinding for days for not even a single level achieved just because? Farming bosses that one shot you, that people will camp and kill you at, that you can't go fight on Bi, that even if you killed for the 1000th time over a week of complete no lifing you won't get any reward because the drop is .00001% and no small amount of ryo is given in compensation of effort...

I'd also say the same thing as Jero. There is no respect among players. The game can heavily be rigged by spies which outcasts new players. Mods don't enforce rules equally or enforce half heatedly at times. There have been cases when your best friend did one small thing and get banned while another player has gotten away with selling acc's and exploiting cheats that benefit whole raid parties. 

I'd also add that Rory has started to destroy the chances of new players even further recently. He added tiers in this game. There are regulars players, there are ANBU, and then there are special orgs. The buff range further and further moves away from the lowbies power level. This makes lower levels incapable of doing legit anything. Additionally, there will be a level increase with even harder grinding pushing the gap from lowbie to a max player even further past the already spent limit. Then advanced will come into play...

All in all, everyday regular level 50 players are already being pushed aside, trashed, given a disadvantage...what makes you think a new level 1 has a chance? Leveling takes literally months unless you no life an entire week and a half with full blessings  (if you don't get spam killed). Rory says often that we should be grateful of game content when it comes out because it takes a lot of time, but doesn't consider the player bases time and dedication to the game which requires a ridiculous amount of time to do anything. It's a game. 

PREACH 

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Nin Online aims to be a classical MMORPG similar to early games like Ultima, World of Warcraft Classic, and Oldschool Runescape. If you don't like games like this, you can go elsewhere. We are not trying to maximize profits or players with a vision that does not reflect this.

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''The biggest  issue is this game's disregard for the value of the Player's time. ''

Everyone that agree with this are missing the OBVIOUS problem and it makes me so mad..this is truly sad... Sure it takes time to travel...Sure battle injuries is annoying...Sure grinding/lvling takes time...But what causes you guys to hate those fact? You get KILLED by everyone so easily that you are 100% of the time on battle injuries, you have to travel back to the place you were 78 times before getting to where you want to get. Your whole grinding progression is completly blocked by someone who actually feel rewarded doing so and will actually intentionally block it hoping you get to the point you insult him so he can send some screens shots to his friendly discord. The game isnt making you lose your time...the player base is.

Stop thinking that the game doesnt value the players time because its so not the  case and its weird to see how MANY people can missunderstand a problem this badly..Its cringe.

Battle injuries gives a reason not to die. It is meant to be a punishment for dying and it is completly normal. It also is normal to be injured after fainting. You are lucky not to be stuck in a bed for 5 mins.

Traveling is long? why? Am I the only one who wants not to do 2 steps to get to another village?

Getting to lvl 50 takes too much time? You guys want to get lvl 50 in a week? where's the rewarding feeling after getting to lvl 50 then? Where is the work behind it?

All of those are not reasons to why leave a community based game. It is just that the community has a too big impact on how you spend your time on this game.  Someone that you doesnt know can decide if you are part of a village or not. Some epic player hunters (so we dont call them unsecure weirdos looking for a way to get confidense) can decide that they will hunt you down just because they feel rewarded getting more kill counts from a lvl 12 new player that is eager to discover the game. 

For me this is what is wrong with this game. The players impact is so big that most of the new players are completly supressed by the players who are already lvl 50.

The biggest  issue is this game's disregard for the value of the Player's time.   Value and respect other players time.

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When it comes to the issue of respecting the players time. I'd argue that it's more disrespectful to a player to design a game where there can be no punishment to performing poorly (dying) or to assume that what players want is for there to be a constant stream of feel good mechanics that over compensate for the lack of actual meaningful progress (eg. Giving meaningless dopamine prompts and useless level ups every 20minutes instead of a meaningful one every day). In your idea of what "respecting players time" the only ultimate answer for how to solve it is to put an AUTOPLAY button that just plays the game for you because what you're seeking as gratification is not the same things that Nin Online aims to provide. Because ultimately if all the game is, is getting from 1-50 as fast as possible, it is a waste of the players time for the game to require any work or time at all to get to max level.

So I argue that it is a balance between what your ideas of respecting a players time and mine. Because in my opinion, the point of Nin being an online game and a memorable time, is in its social elements, and if you are not spending time and hardship getting from 1-50, or 1-10 for that matter, then you are not enjoying the time spent, or being challenged. If being max level means nothing because it is easy, or effortless, then it is in essence, wasting the players time. Because they are spending time to get something worthless.

The reason no other game has battle injuries (which is not true either, this system was taken from countless games before it, albeit renamed) as a replacement to removing a chunk of EXP from the players progress (as seen in games like Maplestory, Ragnarok Online and many more) is because instead of forcing you to regrind that Experience, we're taking you out of the battle, but also not making you need to regrind, so you can better spend that time doing other things like socializing or ranking up your jutsu. Aka. respecting the players time.

Why is there a need for punishment when you die? Because if death is meaningless, killing people is meaningless, and if killing people is meaningless then it's a waste of everyone's time. Hence also not respecting anyone's time by making people waste their time downloading an "online game" where nobody is interacting with one another.

It's all a balance. What you think of as the reason why a lot of new players quit is the same reason a lot of players stay. Personally, I don't like casual games because I don't feel like I'm being challenged. I don't enjoy playing an online game that doesn't require me to group up or go through hardships, die and get good. If the game is a breeze, I don't enjoy it at all. That's why Nin Online is that way.

Do I think the early leveling experience is perfect? No. I think that more missions would help, and more jutsus you can get like cloning, disguising jutsus. But do I think that's the thing that's scaring away new players? No. I think that if you can't get through level 1-10 in Nin, at the current state of the game, Nin will never be the game for you and that's okay because no game is made for everyone. This game is made for people who have time to play a game, involve themselve in community, spending time earning their levels and ranks. But for those people, I hope and believe that Nin Online does reward them with satisfaction, a long period of fun and cooler shit than the people who don't spend a lot of time.

 

 

 

 

But anyway, my point of view is well documented in the development logs on design. So this topic is more for players to discuss and I feel that as the game designer, my job is not to make the game easier for all of you, it's to provide a challenge for all of you. And if you want to make the game a better experience for lower levels because you truly believe that the game gets better at a later point for those who can't get past the start alone, then think of solutions on a village level that helps new players like having people welcome beginners in the academy and helping them with directions, give them tools etc.

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Double post but this was previously locked but since the offensive post has been hidden, I've unlocked it. It's fine for people to discuss and let their opinions about the game be heard. That's why we have a suggestions section. Just stay respectful - and respect the staffs time. lool.

 

We are by no means gaining anything EXCEPT feedback by reading posts and your opinions, so attacking the staff for their responses personally and not their opinions is uncalled for.

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