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Butai

Why Do New Players Quit?

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1 hour ago, Anomoly said:

If they don't kill me then I have no reason to alert my village, I'm focusing on lvling my char first.

But if they camping larvas then something isn't right.

They were like 3-4 players, one of them even told them not to kill newbies, they didn't even listen to their friends LOL.

I noticed Nin is kinda 100% PVP game, they even said that when I did the Genin test, but still, killing newbies for 5-10 mins really? no wonder new players quit, it's already way too hard to lvl it seems.

killing in safe zone is a thing  toxic player  do durning raids i try and dont kill lowbies in safe zone. but  killign lowbies is one of the main problem in general sadly it wont be fixed and nin will lose more players 

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New players quit for a variety of reasons. From nin online using cpu that could crash their laptop all the way to not many helpful veterans [only community can fix this] to very bad slavery grind. Wanting someone to grind is fine but give incentive for them to do it and enjoy it as AI with very bad drop rates or rng mission system that forces you to complete te mission or fall behind since abandoning it counts towards total like a punishment for a child who didn't like supper they momma cooked lol. Overall mission system needs changes to allow people to pick their own missions and a cap of 6 would be nice. Maybe even some buffed AI exp in general. At the end of the day only the owner can fix this and if he doesn't see it needs fixing then this thread is kinda useless sadly.

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i definitely love how around level 30 -35 you start to get missions that you simply cannot do, im speaking of the bi-product missing where you have to kill 50 cursed hosts. From experience and from talking to other players, even at level 50 they are a nightmare to deal with.

On another note. This game suffers from the lack of self-efficiency, everything is revolved around Staff involvement. and what little we as players can handle ourselves is usually governed by RNG. id suggest a opting RNG for a calculated formula. because something like summon's thats some booty. ive easily dumped 130 - 150 blank scrolls. at some point you just stop counting. then get pissed when some level 16 comes around the corner with a new summon. like BRUH.

 

On 1/13/2020 at 1:45 PM, primal27 said:

I noticed Nin is kinda 100% PVP game, they even said that when I did the Genin test, but still, killing newbies for 5-10 mins really? no wonder new players quit, it's already way too hard to lvl it seems.

Ooof its sad but true, i love RP and i think this game has allot of appeasing aspects to exploit RP. but think of all the times someone came up to you asking if you want to Hunt/Raid over asking if you want to do some RP.  shit even then its for the mission experience so they can level up faster and go Hunt/Raid.

Rant over, back to grinding for blanks...

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i quit because i wanted to play a ninja, not an exterminator.

killing bugs as a ninja makes no sense, especially when they want people to rp.

"i'm a genin now, watch me go kick this bug" like what?

k

also being limited to 3 missions a day, which ask you to kill an excessive amount of bugs as well, big yikes dawg

 

- future Hoakge, believe it!

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this guy was killing me and my friend every time we left the village, we prevented us from upping things that ruined the game TOXICO

Sem título.png

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There's honestly just one reason why people quit, pve is boring, the grind is boring it literally drains the life out of you and their whole lvling experience is depressing, and it starts from horrible beginning punching larvaes for 2 DMG and having to wait 1 minute to start regen health. All mobs are just the same with different stats, or they body flicker you for some unavoidable damage , either are not fun.

Honestly I wish I could bring my friend to enjoy this I even told them it gets better after lvl 10 (I lied)they instantly quit as soon as they knew how long they had to wait to get new abilities or how much exp per mob they get.

 

 

I understand the Devs made the lvling harsh and painful so the game "looks" to have content but that's just a skin, if the game is barebones just let it be as long as people enjoy it for the PvP or wars, better to have people enjoying than quitting I would think.

 

Ain't nobody got 10 hours a day to grind a single level of killing the sr mob, it gives you depression and fucks up your head

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As a fairly new player (About to finish my second month) I have a lot of insight into the issues with Nin and its player retention and early game experience, especially since the group of players that got me to join have already died off, and several players ive tried to get to pick up the game have also dipped around. I should point out that i also have a long history with similar games,  that allegedly are the inspiration for nin (Classic WoW, RS, most importantly FFXI which i put an ungodly amount of time into, and is still my favorite MMO to date) so far I have about 8 different accounts here on nin, and i intend to play every mastery till at least the last jutsu unlocks including village specific masteries.

So far i have accounts at lvl 40, 30, 23, 16, 16, 15 and one account that I've reset an ungodly amount of times just testing and playing around with the early grind of 1-10, i should note that I've done all of this despite working 9 hour shifts + an hour of transit daily, so i consider myself to be a semi-casual player.

With that out of the way, id like to point out that a lot of issues pointed out in this thread, are actual non issues, for instance BI being a contributing factor- there needs to be some penalty for death and BI is actually an EASY and FORGIVING system, outside of the loss of boosting items (Rings, Swords, ETC) which is more than fair.

Starting Issues  (1~10)

When it comes to the grind 1~10 is piss easy if you're TAI, Still super easy but needs a bit of direction if your Int- damage scaling on Kunai makes things extremely efficient 10 Dmg per tick is exactly what you need for efficient farming of lvl 5~9 mobs. WM/FAN/GF/BUBBLE get absolutely shafted in this stage of the game, fans and pipes dont unlock until 10, GF's Jutsu also doesn't unlock until 10, and the wooden katana is exorbitantly more expensive than kunai, has terrible damage and scaling, wastes money WM/BUBBLE/FAN need for their lvl 10 items, AND require an entire additional level of 2dmg fisting before even unlocking if they shill the cash for the wooden katana not to mention its damage is  Bad requiring over 25 STR before it matches the kunai, while also still having slower attack speed than it, and thus less DPS for far less stat investment.  I'd really like to see wooden katana and basic katana's base damage increased to from 2->4, level requirement decreased from 5->4 and cost adjusted to be in line with kunai at 125 -> 80 Ryo. 

Would also be nice to see a weaker STR equivalent to Fuma Shuriken so Fan/GF/Bubble could still be efficient without needing to buy a wooden katana (625, 580, OR EVEN just 500 ryo by 10 is pretty tight) and Fuma helps a lot with efficient farming on INT builds as well Between 10~15 (And actually further too.)

With said adjustments no one can really complain from 1->10 from a PVE / gameplay balance perspective unless they're casual to the degree they'd rage quit Hello Kitty Island Adventure, the only real issue at this stage of the game is the open PVP without any restrictions, safe zones were intended to discourage lowbie and new player abuse, but people will walk in and chain kill a level 1~8 that doesn't even have a jutsu to use against them ad nauseum. IMO that /really/shouldn't even be possible. Mot games, even trashy mobile games, have some kind of new player protections in place to prevent this, some minimum level requirement  or threshold that needs to be met before being thrown to the wolves, in nin, you can be an academy student and still get clapped. Fixing the toxic community issue is hard to do from a systems perspective....but i have a few ideas to make new players rage less and feel like the game is at least being fair.

I recommend globally disabling PVP against players unless they have PVP toggled on that are  under lvl 10, Have not ranked to Genin, or have Hermit status to prevent them from being greifed, i would also recommend increasing the wait timer on PVP toggle to be longer than it currently is to prevent abuse under such a system. 

 Early Game Issues (10~20)

Where we left off on PVP abuse- thats one of the biggest issues once PVP is enabled (Assuming we ever fix the newb abuse) and more frequently encountered as your mission assignments start taking you far away enough to be in danger zones, or worse yet, in enemy territory, like the samurai energy drink mission, danger dango, package delivery ETC

Level 20's cant do a damned thing if they encounter a single lvl 50, let alone a raid party, people rarely hunt alone, so being ganged up on by 3+ other players is the most common scenario this is where the strain of nin REALLY begins and one of the biggest complaints I myself, the group of 3 who invited me to play,and the two that i tried to get to join me have.

In those situations you are helpless, with 0 counter play options or recourse, you are destined to die right then and there, why? because EVEN if you git gud at dodging chances are you'll be map locked by a single stray hit before you can zone, or, they will save homings to wait for you to go towards an exit to cock block you're ability to escape.

Escape should be a viable alternative, there should be counter play for being out numbered, and that should be to RUN. For the love of god remove the combat lock timer, or at least drastically shorten it to something more reasonable like 10 seconds, alternatively, add a T1 jutsu that is the opposite of sensory that run cast removes you're combat map lock.  Its bad game design, and extremely unfair that running into anyone several levels during a mission that requires item transit or return to village without death is completely shut down the second somone gets a single hit, or has sensory.

I should note that this will also improve overall game play and player interactions, encouraging people to venture further than the 3-4 zones closest to their village farming incoming people, encouraging the chase will lead to more robust and frequent player interactions, while making delivery / surveillance missions much more fair.

Towards PVE and game balance this is where some more potent issues start showing up with the mission system, level ranges need to be severely tweaked between 10~20 and the early 20's as well, certain missions just cant be done in any reasonable amount of time, and the EXP granted  varies wildly adding too much RNG, and certain missions values just make no sense, for instance  if you look at the Samurai Energy drink mission VS Takumi, one is a further trip that requires you to survive both ways, for 4K exp, the other is a 1-way transit that awards 11k

I strongly suggest looking over mission pools and making adjustments to the level ranges for when they start, and stop showing up based on EXP rewards granted, It feels god awful and unfair to get a trash mission at the upper level range when the EXP is nothing compared to your total requirement to next level. This is when cohesion starts breaking down even if you have a group of players since your leveling will now be RNG based, certain people will start getting ahead of falling behind depending on the luck of the draw / ability to complete missions.

I should also note that mobbing still feels really viable here, and that mobbing SHOULD be a viable alternative to missions if a player has enough downtime, after 20 things slow considerably as the exponential requirements really sink in and mobbing becomes less and less viable.

Mid Game Issues (20~30) 

After 20 is where people start to quit, or slow down severely, most of your missions  suffer from the same issues previously addressed. Either lowball EXP missions that are useless due to exponential increase in EXP requirements, Too difficult to reasonably repeat, or are completely reliant on luck of not encountering others to completed due to map system for stuff like surveillance, this is also when forced PVP enters the mission pool via BK/WW ETC which is exceedingly difficult to do early game unless you're buying kills/bounty.

One way to fix this, and could also help the mission pool  would be to lock certain missions behind group status, as is, the game KNOWS if your in a party and shares missions, group missions could, nay, SHOULD have a different pool than the general with things like WW, Glacier bear, ETC that are very difficult being assigned only to groups- further encouraging group play. You could even make cross-requirement  EG if WW is assigned, the highest available version of mission is assigned to each party member so people are encouraged to group regardless of level EG 2 50's a lvl 30 and a lvl 20 have someone que up a mission, desk assigns the appropriate WW to each player, or even a tier assignment mission for helping the community EG 3 Lowbi's get snake missions, you could have a mentor assignment mission scaled to the appropriate EXP gains for the higher level players brackets for helping the lower tier players.

EG Player 1 LVL 40 Kill 50 Snakes and 50 Venomous snakes
Player 2 lvl 23 Medicine supply 2
Player 3 lvl  25 kill 50 venemous snakes
Player 4 LVL 28 Kill 50 snakes

Or something to that effect

This is also where mobbing starts becoming much less viable, 8 hours of farming at 28 is slow slog that's hardly worth doing and will barely result in a level even if you're a mastery that excels at it. The entire mob pool from lvl 30+ should have EXP grants re-evaluated, especially Snakes, Bears, Hosts, Wolves, Hawks, and Racoons to encourage more mobbing, by the mid twenties all sane players primary source of exp gains should be daily missions, we should discourage that- we want players online and playing, not doing missions then logging out.

Out of a group of 6 people, i am the only person to make it well past 30,  (on two accounts no less) granted other people that migrated from the game i was playing (But not those who invited me, or i invited) have had decent success, and have made it past the 30's with one of them being 45 last i checked despite starting the same time as me (In my defense i haven't run missions on my main in a couple weeks, and don't plan to anytime soon due to Manda boss lvl req) but the survivors all have similar complaints.



Late game issues LVL (30~40)

Lvl 30 is where the game starts to becomes bit more fair, the PVE content for the land of toads is actually enjoyable,  it acts as a trade hub and have a viable means of EXP gain til lvl 35 via the quest line. People also kill much less aggressively making it a more viable farming spot than Hosts/Snakes/Bears because less likely to end up in a territory dispute.  Everything after 35 is a slog through, same issues with missions and other game aspects as all previous tiers except much more that are insanely hard given your lvl and kit.

The only NEW issue at this point of the game is a lack of feeling progress, by the time you hit 40, or at least by the time i hit 40, i already had every single jutsu i have mastery capped from aggressive mobbing and item farming.  All of my progress from 40~50 which takes longer than 1~35, will be just EXP... That isn't rewarding, there are no mini-goals to hit, no jutsu to level, because for some odd reason second mastery doesn't unlock until 50....leaving players no reason to actively use those slightly weaker jutsu in mobbing, or encourage them to mob during these levels (When its desperately needed because the gains are absolute trash by this point.) instead people unlock at 50 then just use them on low level mobs while trying to farm scrolls.

Id recommend giving 2nd mastery at 40, plenty of room between 40 and 50 for people to grind levels on their jutsu and make mobbing feel more rewarding, lvl 50's reward is being capped out and qualifying for elite orgs like ANBU, realistically those positions are reserved for players that are not only capped, but also are decent at the game- capping and being able to try and secure position with these orgs is reward itself for lvl 50 IMO (Boosts OP AF).

Alternatively, if the mastery system could be tweaked to have Mastery and then SUB mastery, id support introducing 2nd mastery at 30 w/ seprate level/stat requirements up to 50 to unlock the rest of the jutsu for more linear progress, this would also change how people play and distribute stats mid to late game, which could improve build diversity, rather than everyone being one trick ponies until they stat reset at 50

I'd also recommend lowering the aggro range and damage of hosts, they aggro from far too far away, spawn too clumped together, and do a ridiculous amounts of damage (More than any jutsu a player can use at 100+ AGI/STR/INT)

Non level specific Issues:

Cordoning of Boss content

It makes 0 sense that Kumorui, Guren, and Manda are level gated, especially as i'm told drop rates on Shirokata for Manda were reduced from the initial 10%, players should be able to group up and run these bosses regardless of level, perhaps with a cool down timer to prevent single groups from hogging the area, or adding the ability for multiple instances of a boss encounter to run, the game lacks content, at end game and otherwise, the boss fights are an interest thing that can be done if you have a group, but finding a group within the level restrictions is a pain. At the very least, so long as 1 player is within the range, the whole party should have the ability to  partake, finding out you missed out on a boss and potential drops because you're lvl 21 feels like a kick in the groin, same for when one of your group finally inches to 41 from 40.

I'd write more general issues but i just got done work and im not going to sit in the office like a weird lonely dweeb typing to myself, plus a man can only complain so much in one day.

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"With said adjustments no one can really complain from 1->10 from a PVE / gameplay balance perspective"

I strongly disagree with your interpretation of the early game issues. If your PvE gameplay loop is as boring as Nin's you should really be breezing to a stage where you can actually do something cool. Grinding for even 10 minutes on bugs, let alone the many hours it takes to get a single jutsu, holding the one attack button, then waiting for 2 minutes before you can fight more is enough to make more people quit than you will ever know. Hardly anyone who dislikes the core aspects of a game is going to stick around to say something about it. First impressions are key, and not giving your player anything fun to play with in the most crucial part of your game is a huge development taboo.
 

I can say with absolute certainty the two main factors in new people quitting are the lack of direction and, more importantly, early progression being abysmal in both grind and meaningful content unlocks.

Getting players to their first couple content unlocks quickly, whether by altering the exp curve (lazy solution) or, better yet, introducing a better mission and quest system would be a great place to start looking at improving new player experience. Players who are able to experience a varietal taste of content right off the bat are more likely to stick around just that little bit longer, which, in the long run, can be a huge factor in player retention.

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1 hour ago, Helm said:

"With said adjustments no one can really complain from 1->10 from a PVE / gameplay balance perspective"

I strongly disagree with your interpretation of the early game issues. If your PvE gameplay loop is as boring as Nin's you should really be breezing to a stage where you can actually do something cool. Grinding for even 10 minutes on bugs, let alone the many hours it takes to get a single jutsu, holding the one attack button, then waiting for 2 minutes before you can fight more is enough to make more people quit than you will ever know. Hardly anyone who dislikes the core aspects of a game is going to stick around to say something about it. First impressions are key, and not giving your player anything fun to play with in the most crucial part of your game is a huge development taboo.
 

I can say with absolute certainty the two main factors in new people quitting are the lack of direction and, more importantly, early progression being abysmal in both grind and meaningful content unlocks.

Getting players to their first couple content unlocks quickly, whether by altering the exp curve (lazy solution) or, better yet, introducing a better mission and quest system would be a great place to start looking at improving new player experience. Players who are able to experience a varietal taste of content right off the bat are more likely to stick around just that little bit longer, which, in the long run, can be a huge factor in player retention.

I should start by noting it doesn't take "Many Hours" to unlock your first jutsu, i just did a dry run to time myself w/o any missions (Except the mission desk one) on a tai account and got  from start to lvl 10 in 1:20, for most folk with less efficiency that will still be under 2 hours, and that's not counting those who can actually use Fuma since they plan to be INT based- as most of that time was lvl 8~10 and fuma unlocks AT 8.

Players who cant endure 1-10 "because of the grind" aren't the kind of players that would ever play Nin long term, i'd argue more tutorial-like aspects are probably needed to give people direction so they're aware that Kunai / Wooden sword exist as options, same for learning where everything is at their hub / overviews of what the different masteries are geared towards would be nice- since not everyone is social, or forward-looking enough to look up a guide on the forum.

If you want to tackle that issue specifically,  id recommend extending the tutorial quest chain that has you check in at  the mission counter, have it redirect you to the other vendor areas EG Tools/Weapons/Scroll shop with little bits of information XP and some ryo without forcing newbies to use their first set of daily missions. to hit that 80 ryo for Kunai / Katana. That along side balancing wooden katana to not be worthless, and adding an STR equivalent to Fuma Shuriken (Possibly lowering the level req on fuma as well) Would fix the lack of direction and "feeling" of progression, as well as the disparity between leveling speed prior to mastery unlocking.

Towards missions....You're literally preaching to the choir I tried to make a thread with some ideas on it before, and no one even replied to it lol.




 

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On 05/02/2020 at 3:15 AM, Arphee said:

As a fairly new player (About to finish my second month) I have a lot of insight into the issues with Nin and its player retention and early game experience, especially since the group of players that got me to join have already died off, and several players ive tried to get to pick up the game have also dipped around. I should point out that i also have a long history with similar games,  that allegedly are the inspiration for nin (Classic WoW, RS, most importantly FFXI which i put an ungodly amount of time into, and is still my favorite MMO to date) so far I have about 8 different accounts here on nin, and i intend to play every mastery till at least the last jutsu unlocks including village specific masteries.

So far i have accounts at lvl 40, 30, 23, 16, 16, 15 and one account that I've reset an ungodly amount of times just testing and playing around with the early grind of 1-10, i should note that I've done all of this despite working 9 hour shifts + an hour of transit daily, so i consider myself to be a semi-casual player.

With that out of the way, id like to point out that a lot of issues pointed out in this thread, are actual non issues, for instance BI being a contributing factor- there needs to be some penalty for death and BI is actually an EASY and FORGIVING system, outside of the loss of boosting items (Rings, Swords, ETC) which is more than fair.

Starting Issues  (1~10)

When it comes to the grind 1~10 is piss easy if you're TAI, Still super easy but needs a bit of direction if your Int- damage scaling on Kunai makes things extremely efficient 10 Dmg per tick is exactly what you need for efficient farming of lvl 5~9 mobs. WM/FAN/GF/BUBBLE get absolutely shafted in this stage of the game, fans and pipes dont unlock until 10, GF's Jutsu also doesn't unlock until 10, and the wooden katana is exorbitantly more expensive than kunai, has terrible damage and scaling, wastes money WM/BUBBLE/FAN need for their lvl 10 items, AND require an entire additional level of 2dmg fisting before even unlocking if they shill the cash for the wooden katana not to mention its damage is  Bad requiring over 25 STR before it matches the kunai, while also still having slower attack speed than it, and thus less DPS for far less stat investment.  I'd really like to see wooden katana and basic katana's base damage increased to from 2->4, level requirement decreased from 5->4 and cost adjusted to be in line with kunai at 125 -> 80 Ryo. 

Would also be nice to see a weaker STR equivalent to Fuma Shuriken so Fan/GF/Bubble could still be efficient without needing to buy a wooden katana (625, 580, OR EVEN just 500 ryo by 10 is pretty tight) and Fuma helps a lot with efficient farming on INT builds as well Between 10~15 (And actually further too.)

With said adjustments no one can really complain from 1->10 from a PVE / gameplay balance perspective unless they're casual to the degree they'd rage quit Hello Kitty Island Adventure, the only real issue at this stage of the game is the open PVP without any restrictions, safe zones were intended to discourage lowbie and new player abuse, but people will walk in and chain kill a level 1~8 that doesn't even have a jutsu to use against them ad nauseum. IMO that /really/shouldn't even be possible. Mot games, even trashy mobile games, have some kind of new player protections in place to prevent this, some minimum level requirement  or threshold that needs to be met before being thrown to the wolves, in nin, you can be an academy student and still get clapped. Fixing the toxic community issue is hard to do from a systems perspective....but i have a few ideas to make new players rage less and feel like the game is at least being fair.

I recommend globally disabling PVP against players unless they have PVP toggled on that are  under lvl 10, Have not ranked to Genin, or have Hermit status to prevent them from being greifed, i would also recommend increasing the wait timer on PVP toggle to be longer than it currently is to prevent abuse under such a system. 

 Early Game Issues (10~20)

Where we left off on PVP abuse- thats one of the biggest issues once PVP is enabled (Assuming we ever fix the newb abuse) and more frequently encountered as your mission assignments start taking you far away enough to be in danger zones, or worse yet, in enemy territory, like the samurai energy drink mission, danger dango, package delivery ETC

Level 20's cant do a damned thing if they encounter a single lvl 50, let alone a raid party, people rarely hunt alone, so being ganged up on by 3+ other players is the most common scenario this is where the strain of nin REALLY begins and one of the biggest complaints I myself, the group of 3 who invited me to play,and the two that i tried to get to join me have.

In those situations you are helpless, with 0 counter play options or recourse, you are destined to die right then and there, why? because EVEN if you git gud at dodging chances are you'll be map locked by a single stray hit before you can zone, or, they will save homings to wait for you to go towards an exit to cock block you're ability to escape.

Escape should be a viable alternative, there should be counter play for being out numbered, and that should be to RUN. For the love of god remove the combat lock timer, or at least drastically shorten it to something more reasonable like 10 seconds, alternatively, add a T1 jutsu that is the opposite of sensory that run cast removes you're combat map lock.  Its bad game design, and extremely unfair that running into anyone several levels during a mission that requires item transit or return to village without death is completely shut down the second somone gets a single hit, or has sensory.

I should note that this will also improve overall game play and player interactions, encouraging people to venture further than the 3-4 zones closest to their village farming incoming people, encouraging the chase will lead to more robust and frequent player interactions, while making delivery / surveillance missions much more fair.

Towards PVE and game balance this is where some more potent issues start showing up with the mission system, level ranges need to be severely tweaked between 10~20 and the early 20's as well, certain missions just cant be done in any reasonable amount of time, and the EXP granted  varies wildly adding too much RNG, and certain missions values just make no sense, for instance  if you look at the Samurai Energy drink mission VS Takumi, one is a further trip that requires you to survive both ways, for 4K exp, the other is a 1-way transit that awards 11k

I strongly suggest looking over mission pools and making adjustments to the level ranges for when they start, and stop showing up based on EXP rewards granted, It feels god awful and unfair to get a trash mission at the upper level range when the EXP is nothing compared to your total requirement to next level. This is when cohesion starts breaking down even if you have a group of players since your leveling will now be RNG based, certain people will start getting ahead of falling behind depending on the luck of the draw / ability to complete missions.

I should also note that mobbing still feels really viable here, and that mobbing SHOULD be a viable alternative to missions if a player has enough downtime, after 20 things slow considerably as the exponential requirements really sink in and mobbing becomes less and less viable.

Mid Game Issues (20~30) 

After 20 is where people start to quit, or slow down severely, most of your missions  suffer from the same issues previously addressed. Either lowball EXP missions that are useless due to exponential increase in EXP requirements, Too difficult to reasonably repeat, or are completely reliant on luck of not encountering others to completed due to map system for stuff like surveillance, this is also when forced PVP enters the mission pool via BK/WW ETC which is exceedingly difficult to do early game unless you're buying kills/bounty.

One way to fix this, and could also help the mission pool  would be to lock certain missions behind group status, as is, the game KNOWS if your in a party and shares missions, group missions could, nay, SHOULD have a different pool than the general with things like WW, Glacier bear, ETC that are very difficult being assigned only to groups- further encouraging group play. You could even make cross-requirement  EG if WW is assigned, the highest available version of mission is assigned to each party member so people are encouraged to group regardless of level EG 2 50's a lvl 30 and a lvl 20 have someone que up a mission, desk assigns the appropriate WW to each player, or even a tier assignment mission for helping the community EG 3 Lowbi's get snake missions, you could have a mentor assignment mission scaled to the appropriate EXP gains for the higher level players brackets for helping the lower tier players.

EG Player 1 LVL 40 Kill 50 Snakes and 50 Venomous snakes
Player 2 lvl 23 Medicine supply 2
Player 3 lvl  25 kill 50 venemous snakes
Player 4 LVL 28 Kill 50 snakes

Or something to that effect

This is also where mobbing starts becoming much less viable, 8 hours of farming at 28 is slow slog that's hardly worth doing and will barely result in a level even if you're a mastery that excels at it. The entire mob pool from lvl 30+ should have EXP grants re-evaluated, especially Snakes, Bears, Hosts, Wolves, Hawks, and Racoons to encourage more mobbing, by the mid twenties all sane players primary source of exp gains should be daily missions, we should discourage that- we want players online and playing, not doing missions then logging out.

Out of a group of 6 people, i am the only person to make it well past 30,  (on two accounts no less) granted other people that migrated from the game i was playing (But not those who invited me, or i invited) have had decent success, and have made it past the 30's with one of them being 45 last i checked despite starting the same time as me (In my defense i haven't run missions on my main in a couple weeks, and don't plan to anytime soon due to Manda boss lvl req) but the survivors all have similar complaints.



Late game issues LVL (30~40)

Lvl 30 is where the game starts to becomes bit more fair, the PVE content for the land of toads is actually enjoyable,  it acts as a trade hub and have a viable means of EXP gain til lvl 35 via the quest line. People also kill much less aggressively making it a more viable farming spot than Hosts/Snakes/Bears because less likely to end up in a territory dispute.  Everything after 35 is a slog through, same issues with missions and other game aspects as all previous tiers except much more that are insanely hard given your lvl and kit.

The only NEW issue at this point of the game is a lack of feeling progress, by the time you hit 40, or at least by the time i hit 40, i already had every single jutsu i have mastery capped from aggressive mobbing and item farming.  All of my progress from 40~50 which takes longer than 1~35, will be just EXP... That isn't rewarding, there are no mini-goals to hit, no jutsu to level, because for some odd reason second mastery doesn't unlock until 50....leaving players no reason to actively use those slightly weaker jutsu in mobbing, or encourage them to mob during these levels (When its desperately needed because the gains are absolute trash by this point.) instead people unlock at 50 then just use them on low level mobs while trying to farm scrolls.

Id recommend giving 2nd mastery at 40, plenty of room between 40 and 50 for people to grind levels on their jutsu and make mobbing feel more rewarding, lvl 50's reward is being capped out and qualifying for elite orgs like ANBU, realistically those positions are reserved for players that are not only capped, but also are decent at the game- capping and being able to try and secure position with these orgs is reward itself for lvl 50 IMO (Boosts OP AF).

Alternatively, if the mastery system could be tweaked to have Mastery and then SUB mastery, id support introducing 2nd mastery at 30 w/ seprate level/stat requirements up to 50 to unlock the rest of the jutsu for more linear progress, this would also change how people play and distribute stats mid to late game, which could improve build diversity, rather than everyone being one trick ponies until they stat reset at 50

I'd also recommend lowering the aggro range and damage of hosts, they aggro from far too far away, spawn too clumped together, and do a ridiculous amounts of damage (More than any jutsu a player can use at 100+ AGI/STR/INT)

Non level specific Issues:

Cordoning of Boss content

It makes 0 sense that Kumorui, Guren, and Manda are level gated, especially as i'm told drop rates on Shirokata for Manda were reduced from the initial 10%, players should be able to group up and run these bosses regardless of level, perhaps with a cool down timer to prevent single groups from hogging the area, or adding the ability for multiple instances of a boss encounter to run, the game lacks content, at end game and otherwise, the boss fights are an interest thing that can be done if you have a group, but finding a group within the level restrictions is a pain. At the very least, so long as 1 player is within the range, the whole party should have the ability to  partake, finding out you missed out on a boss and potential drops because you're lvl 21 feels like a kick in the groin, same for when one of your group finally inches to 41 from 40.

I'd write more general issues but i just got done work and im not going to sit in the office like a weird lonely dweeb typing to myself, plus a man can only complain so much in one day.

PLEASE HIRE THIS GUY TO BALANCE THE GAME, EVEN AS AN ADVISOR!

No cap though, this guys posts are always full of logical fixes or points out the problems that CAN be fixed to make this game more like the Oldschool Runescape level / World of Warcraft level you are trying to achieve, not this beyond grindable level Nin is currently at. I suggest at least hearing this guy out @Ueda and @Seth because he could honestly grow your game to a larger community whilst also maintaining your vision.

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"Players who cant endure 1-10 "because of the grind" aren't the kind of players that would ever play Nin long term"

And that's a problem. Being grindy is "ok", but the grind has to be fun. Combat in Nin, especially early game, has a severe lack of depth, so forcing people to deal with it ad nauseam is objectively poor design. If the grind isn't enjoyable to begin with there's not going to be any expectation that it gets any better. The fact that this hasn't been addressed by the developers already seems like they're stubbornly pandering to the smallest niche audience possible, which is absolutely horrible for growth.

As a side, your use of the word "endure" to describe an entire stage of the game says a lot, whether you realized it or not.

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43 minutes ago, Helm said:

"Players who cant endure 1-10 "because of the grind" aren't the kind of players that would ever play Nin long term"

And that's a problem. Being grindy is "ok", but the grind has to be fun. Combat in Nin, especially early game, has a severe lack of depth, so forcing people to deal with it ad nauseam is objectively poor design. If the grind isn't enjoyable to begin with there's not going to be any expectation that it gets any better. The fact that this hasn't been addressed by the developers already seems like they're stubbornly pandering to the smallest niche audience possible, which is absolutely horrible for growth.

As a side, your use of the word "endure" to describe an entire stage of the game says a lot, whether you realized it or not.


Issue is the core design of nin doesn't allow for the superficial progression gimmicks other games throw at you, with fake progression that overall mean nothing, every unlock in nin (Save for a few absolute trash unlocks STR WM lvl 30 jutsu i am looking at you e.e)

Most games wow you with superfluousness addition as awards and skills that you don't use later on and have no actual real world value, or force you to select a starting class that you're locked into at the start of the game.

I also note that while you note that there is "a lot of grind" specifically 1-10 (id argue there is MUCH more of an issue between 20 and 30 and between 40 and 50) i'm not seeing any actual suggestions on how to fix or improve the current system without basically rebuilding the entire structure of the game.

Formerly you said:

 

21 hours ago, Helm said:

I can say with absolute certainty the two main factors in new people quitting are the lack of direction and, more importantly, early progression being abysmal in both grind and meaningful content unlocks.

Getting players to their first couple content unlocks quickly, whether by altering the exp curve (lazy solution) or, better yet, introducing a better mission and quest system would be a great place to start looking at improving new player experience. Players who are able to experience a varietal taste of content right off the bat are more likely to stick around just that little bit longer, which, in the long run, can be a huge factor in player retention.

2 Hours gets you from 1-10. At lvl 4 you unlock the village missions to get your second free jutsu (Cloak/Flicker/ Sub) depending on village. During or shortly after that you unlock access to weapons for STR/INT builds at 4/5 which happens within like 20 minutes tops of killing larvae for lvl 4. For int you also unlock your first combat jutsu at 8 via fuuma shuriken, which takes far less time than reaching 10 for the other masteries. and ofc at 10 All playstyles unlock mastery and get a free jutsu scroll.

So in two hours or less your toolkit is as follows

1. Free Academy Jutsu (Lvl 1)
2. Acess to ranged consumables (Kunai/Senbon/Shuriken)
3. Free Quest Jutsu (lvl 4)
4. Access to 3'rd Academy tier Jutsu (Technically LVL 1 but no scrolls until you've killed mobs)
5. Weapon Access (Lvl 4)
6. Acess to Fuma Shurken (Lvl 8)
7. Free T1 and Mastery Jutsu (Lvl 10)

I'm all for making sure people are more aware of some of these options EG Fuma / Tool items the other Academy jutsu, weapons, ETC to make sure they aren't mindless 2 damaging larvae from 1~10 same for giving them some starting ryo through a longer tutorial or more bound items EG bound kunai / senbon/shuriken.  But my question is-

How much more "Content" unlocks do you think players should have access to this early on? and if given how do you offset that progression and leveling value for lvl 15 and 20? How quick do you think the progression from Start to 10 should be?  if not 2 hours then how short? I have 8 permanent accounts over lvl 10 and one account that i've reset about 10~20 times testing early game progression, so i like to think im fairly experienced with that starting grind.

Id like to hear some easy to implement suggestions that don't diminish the existing content, or require massive overhauls to the full game to address issues with "early game progression" even if rory and seth aren't around to to discuss it, or even reading this thread, I personally enjoy game design, balance, and game theory as a whole. (Both the concept, AND the youtube channel.)

So lets keep the ball rolling and bounce some ideas around and see what sticks, even if we agree to disagree there's always value in insight into other peoples ideas and opinions.
 

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The thing is, I don't play the game. I've never made it past the killing bugs stage. That's exactly why I commented in this thread, and you constantly bringing up post level 10 is entirely irrelevant to the topic. My point this entire time is that the game isn't engaging enough to keep new players interested long enough to get to the "content" outside of killing bugs for a couple hours. I'm talking about those first 1-2 hours specifically. Those first couple hours, and even sooner a lot of the time, is when most people will form their opinions. Not giving players anything cool to do in that time is a good way to ensure a lot of those opinions are negative or indifferent. Thinking the problem stems from anything but the first couple hours of content, or lack thereof, is naive and counterproductive to the topic.

I'm not here to fix the game, I'm here to explain why new players quit.

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Hello! I'd just like to throw my two cents in with a two part post. The first part is to address @Arphee and @Helm are saying, about the grind. The second, is to address my own personal takes: the focal point this game sells itself on on its splash screen - the roleplaying.

While I don't have the time right now to poke at the second part, I at least want to get my thoughts out on the first. These are my opinions, and are subject to scrutiny, but again - remain my personal thoughts on the topic at hand.

---

To start, like @Arphee said, by the time you hit level ten in however many hours it takes (because - let's face it - not everyone will spend every moment available slaving away at killing enemies.), the player should have access to the tools listed above... unless they don't. 

While they may have access to these tools, it doesn't guarantee the player gets them. While that's good on a certain front - establishing a goal for the player to achieve - in other ways, it can be a misnomer on what they player has in their arsenal. I know he's highlighted it already, but I want to give that area a bit more depth, to really shine a light on how hyperfocused this game is on its grind.

1 hour ago, Arphee said:

1. Free Academy Jutsu (Lvl 1)
2. Acess to ranged consumables (Kunai/Senbon/Shuriken)
3. Free Quest Jutsu (lvl 4)
4. Access to 3'rd Academy tier Jutsu (Technically LVL 1 but no scrolls until you've killed mobs)
5. Weapon Access (Lvl 4)
6. Acess to Fuma Shurken (Lvl 8)
7. Free T1 and Mastery Jutsu (Lvl 10)

1. You get this for free - definitely. (And this is only from my perspective as a Leaf-nin. I was reading the Wiki and, to the best of my knowledge, other villages don't have an academy?)

2. Access to ranged weapons is only available at 2 Ryo a piece - which, for low levels, exclusively comes from either handouts or drops. Handouts are relative to missions they may complete, which is a grind. Drops are from, you guessed it, a grind. Getting out there and fighting is #goals, sure, but if they end up dying over and over again, just to attempt to get their foot in the door, it can be frustrating for a lot of people - especially without a lack of direction.

3. I personally love this quest - it's a break from the constant combat that has come to define this game. It's something simple, but fun - as it gets you roaming around your village (at least, in the case of the Leaf), and coming to understand your surroundings. It gives a sense of appreciation for the scale of the town, and then, as a result, of the game itself. It's not an easy quest, as you'll end up backtracking if you don't have eagle eyes, but it keeps you in a relatively safe area, and lets you explore.

4. This is the same deal with the 2nd point - access to this skill is equally tied to either handouts or drops. Handouts being from the random mission that gives you a scroll... if you find a scroll. And the drop being from, yep, a scroll. It does encourage the fighting, which is still a very important aspect of the game, but it discourages anything and everything else.

5. This is relative to each "class", but the level of flashiness isn't really the best. Sure, the numbers are higher, there's new spicy animations, but then there's trade-offs, like attack speed. This is a bit of a non-factor, but it's something I figured I'd bring to light.

6. Fuuma's a cool skill, but it's only really accessible under the same circumstances as #4, and it only works at its best with those scaling along the INT route. It's visually impressive, but the difficulties behind getting it, and the usefulness of it leave a lot to be desired.

7. Mastery is without a doubt, the goal for the new players. Everyone's excited about getting a chakra nature, and want to get what they want to get. It's exciting to be able to hit such a milestone. But there's... no real fanfare. It's just "pick one, okay you got it". And then, beyond that, it's the same deal as #6. And beyond that, it's just back to the grind. The fire goes out immediately, and you're left directionless - save for "get to level 50 for the next one". It's disheartening, in my opinion.

---

These are all my opinions, and therefore, are subjective - a person may be inclined to agree, or may not be, it's up to you. But these are points that I've felt, and several people I've asked and spoken to, kind of shoved together into a post.

With any game - or any accessible media for that matter - opinion is formed relatively quickly, as @Helm has mentioned. If the goal of this community is to expand, which I'm understanding it does, accessibility is necessary. That might mean compromising on certain ideals - such as difficulty level, or focus on combat - especially when the game is being purpotedly touted as a roleplay-focused game. I want to help in whatever ways I can to lift this community and game to its peak, though, please don't misunderstand. It's just, I feel like there's no real hook, other than the inspiration for the game. While the stated hook is supposed to be the roleplaying, there's little to no emphasis on it. With that falling through, the hook then becomes the combat, which can be grindy at best, and impossible - due to rampant player-killing, single-digit drop rates, and limited move pools - at worst.

My solution would be to lean a bit more towards that roleplaying element this game is supposed to be based on - so that Rory doesn't have to scale back the difficulty of the game. It's clear that he enjoys the curve of that difficulty, and who am I to hamper someone's creative passion (I love when people are excited about making things!) - so I want to see if we can't find another avenue to help other players, ones that aren't as much of a fan of the difficulty, to find their footing.

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51 minutes ago, Ketzu said:

While they may have access to these tools, it doesn't guarantee the player gets them. While that's good on a certain front - establishing a goal for the player to achieve - in other ways, it can be a misnomer on what they player has in their arsenal.

1. (And this is only from my perspective as a Leaf-nin. I was reading the Wiki and, to the best of my knowledge, other villages don't have an academy?)

2. but if they end up dying over and over again, just to attempt to get their foot in the door, it can be frustrating for a lot of people - especially without a lack of direction.

4. This is the same deal with the 2nd point - access to this skill is equally tied to either handouts or drops. Handouts being from the random mission that gives you a scroll... if you find a scroll. And the drop being from, yep, a scroll. It does encourage the fighting, which is still a very important aspect of the game, but it discourages anything and everything else.

5. This is relative to each "class", but the level of flashiness isn't really the best. Sure, the numbers are higher, there's new spicy animations, but then there's trade-offs, like attack speed.

6. Fuuma's a cool skill, but it's only really accessible under the same circumstances as #4, and it only works at its best with those scaling along the INT route. It's visually impressive, but the difficulties behind getting it, and the usefulness of it leave a lot to be desired.

7.  But there's... no real fanfare. It's just "pick one, okay you got it". And then, beyond that, it's the same deal as #6. And beyond that, it's just back to the grind. The fire goes out immediately, and you're left directionless - save for "get to level 50 for the next one". It's disheartening, in my opinion.

---

That might mean compromising on certain ideals - such as difficulty level, or focus on combat - especially when the game is being purportedly touted as a roleplay-focused game. I want to help in whatever ways I can to lift this community and game to its peak, though, please don't misunderstand. It's just, I feel like there's no real hook, other than the inspiration for the game. While the stated hook is supposed to be the roleplaying, there's little to no emphasis on it. With that falling through, the hook then becomes the combat, which can be grindy at best, and impossible - due to rampant player-killing, single-digit drop rates, and limited move pools - at worst.

My solution would be to lean a bit more towards that roleplaying element this game is supposed to be based on - so that Rory doesn't have to scale back the difficulty of the game. It's clear that he enjoys the curve of that difficulty, and who am I to hamper someone's creative passion (I love when people are excited about making things!) - so I want to see if we can't find another avenue to help other players, ones that aren't as much of a fan of the difficulty, to find their footing.

True enough towards  having access but not guaranteeing acquisition, hence my suggestion to lengthen the tutorial, and let players know these options exist, while also making them more accessible with my earlier responses to Helms criticism. I do think this would help. The game never points or encourages you to find the weapon/item/scroll shop, nothing that lets you know Fuuma exists, or the lvl 4 quest exists, or indicates when you reach lvl 10 you'll get that free scroll to unlock. These are legitimate problems, which can be very easily addressed to streamline the process and make new players more familiar with their surroundings and options while giving some free exp ryo / items.

Towards academy, each village has one, Mist Gets Substitution  as starting jutsu, Leaf Body Flicker, and Sand gets Cloak, each village also has a different lvl 4 quest which give different secondary free jutsu ^^

Towards early death- unless some jerk (And dont get me wrong, there are MANY, and i do mean MAAAAAAAAAAANY of them) is greifing you, after the first death or two to larvae you should figure out they hit for 3 damage, how many time they hit you on average before you kill them, and stop attacking them before your HP hits that threshold, though i'd agree the fact the academy yeets you with BI still active is detrimental to this.

Towards acessibility to Fuuma and 3rd academy jutsu, yeah, scrolls are hard to come by and the 50/50 flip on them can be absolutely terrible, i once failed 9 rolls for T1 in a row to complete the mission that requires you to get a copy of the jutsu taught at academy- wouldn't wish that on my worst enemy, as it stands to unlock all Functional T1 jutsu you need 3 T1 rolls assuming you're able to use LVL 10 mastery, LVL 15 Mastery, Fuuma, and 3'rd academy jutsu. 3->2 wouldn't  be much of a difficulty decrease, and it could very easilly fit into the tutorial quests giving you a free T1 around lvl 8- letting you decide to get 3rd acadmy, Fuuma / my proposed equivelent for it, or hold off and use it for your lvl 10+15 jutsu without relying on RNG.

Towards weapons, well, numbers going up is a huge thing, means more efficient farming and feeling like youve gotten stronger, and yes, there is big variance in DPS Tai VS Int VS STR builds using Fist vs Kunai vs Wooden sword, with sword being worst and good old fisticuffs being the undisputed early game king- nothing much you can do to gussy up an upgraded basic attack animation, but the increased efficiency shouldn't be overlooked, and IMO is severely welcome if you can get them. (Especially as someone who has 2-damage'd his way to lvl 10 because he was afraid he wouldn't have enough ryo for lvl 10 sword if purchasing the lvl 5 sword e.e)

Towards fuma's usefulness- yes its only worth getting if you're int based, but if you are it's quite good, decent damage, very long range, can be off by a square and still hit a target or multi-hit targets, and can be used as a support jutsu if you happen to see fighting on your map since people wont expect it or be paying attention to lowbies if stronger players are engaging them. (You could actually change the course of a fight if you hit one and your villagers get a combo off as a result)

Towards second mastery being locked behind 50, i agree its a bit far and counter intuitive since you no longer have challenging mobs to use jutsu on since you only need to hit anything be it laevae or snow wolves to get jutsu exp, at lvl 30 you do unlock the toad questline which is a rapid increase in lvls and acess to a good healing item in the form of toad oil,  you also have new jutsu unlocks which are always exciting to unlock (Except WM lvl 30 jutsu, waste of a T3 i swear)

Not sure if you're aware- but you do also have acess to 3 new missions at LVL 10 foir seals in both Leaf and Sand villiage, as well as a 3rd quest to grab tools for a man named Benkei from the rogue village of takumi-  the takumi mission is only some exp, but the leaf and sand seals missions unlock new areas that have rare drops, which can be more encouragement to farm.

If you're WM you also can look forward to different sword upgrades as you progress through levels, which Int/Agi builds dont really have an equivelent for, there are also 2 bosses you can fight that unlock at 20~30 and 30~40 respectively.

I agree that the title of MMORPG is a bit misleading since nin lacks a lot of the core features that make things like OSRS, WoW and other similar games actually function, the entire focus and breadth of content is basically reliant on end game PVP as an encouragement loop, and too much RNG progression with the current mission system. i also agree the absolute lack of player protections is an issue, and that as a general rule of thumb the community is rude and ruthless, killing on sight regardless of  personal player system (Because the game lacks any kind of formal war systems so people just openly attack X villagers unprovoked everywhere on the map, safe zones be damned) towards limited move sets.....that don't make a difference,  most of the time you;re trying to get anything done it will be either multiple people on top of you, or someone with a 5-10 level advantage which is a whole world apart in terms of survivablity or damage depending on their build.

Regardless of original intent, Nin is for better or worse in its current state is 70% PVP, 20% PVE, 9% Socializing, and 1% roleplay, with chuunin exams and Rp I-IV being the only real roleplaying you'll get to do, chuunin can also be hard to come by to host missions, and they're sadly non-repeatable discouraging any kind of active roleplay progression (At least for now) i'd like to see that changed- id like to see more refined PVE and encouraged RP through repeatable RP quests.

As always, i appreciate the feedback, and hope those an high read these threads for feedback, if you're interested in voicing support for some other suggestions that encourage changing some game systems to add more PVE content and improve accessibility i'd recommend  the following:

Sustromimgs Crafting suggestion
Nefarious Garbage Brigade

Zabuzas Boss Level Requirement Replacement
Arphee's Mission Rework

 

I'd also recommend posting any ideas you have too, only way things will improve is with feedback and community support. ;) 

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Hey new player here!

I heard about this game through a discord so I decided to check it out. It's a pretty cool game, I like the graphics, combat is fun, and there is next to no delay command inputs. All in all I give the game a thumbs up! But it does have it's gripes like any game. This one is that the grind truly is a rough one. I understand the creators want you to spend as much time playing as possible and there are indeed things to do in the game besides just PvP; which I know a lot play this for. You have only three missions you can get from your HQ. These missions take a crazy amount of times for someone to finish. Killing 80 foxes takes quite long time, and yea I know you can just group and it goes by much quicker. You shouldn't NEED to group for it though, I shouldn't be having to fight something that does 18 damage when I only do 9. The drop rate on fodder items is next to none. This makes the grind so much rough when you are getting anything, not even things to throw away. I get the blank scrolls being rare and should stay at their drop rate. I want to spend money on food and projectiles but I don't have anything to sell! Also those items I do find are only worth 1-3 ryo and a food pellet is 25! Another thing is the killing of new players, why drive off you're only chance of having a huge community if you are constantly killing off anyone new? What fun is it that you can 3-shot me? Oh yea I have a chance to drop a scroll that is probably has the same chance as dropping from a spider. Don't even get me started on the death debuff. That doesn't make any since at all, if you want to keep that kinda mechanic then have it on the higher levels. At the lower levels we need as much time as we possibly can to grind. Now I didn't type this up from just one sitting of playing, I took my time and am still playing; so far I have hit level 10 and plan to get into bubble jutsus; which is what got me most interested to begin with. Most of the problems I see feel like it's mechanics that are made to punish the player and I don't really get why. You want us to grind out exp but only give us a few missions to run and those missions might not even be doable. I read that this community is toxic and I haven't ran into much of it in-game, plenty of it on the forms from posts I've read. So I suspect I'll be hit with all the "Git Gud" comments, "The world is harsh", or "You shouldn't need to be rewarded all the time!". Not saying any of these things at all. What I'm saying is that how do you expect me to "Git gud" when I can't buy anything, kill anything, or protect myself from anything? I'm guessing this game is way more clique friendly than it is solo friendly, and that's a huge problem.

All in all, I'm giving myself maybe a few more days before I drop this game. I've enjoyed it a lot and even caught myself at work wanting to hurry up and get home; but the amount of time I would have to spend to get anything good is madness!

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@Touken 

You are 100% right, to succeed on Nin you need a team. You can't play it as a solo ninja or the level of difficulty will be too hard (especially if you are a rogue ninja).

To be honest, I try to stop to attack people below lvl 10 in safe zones. BUT if they go in danger zones, they should expect to die (higher lvl get missions where they need to kill a big amount of ninjas, so they eventually become merciless).

I also agree with you that battle injuries should not be a thing if we are below lvl 10. 

You probably don't know it since you are a new player but you can do some missions (that are not dailies), and farm some boss (like the spider boss) to get xp and lvl faster. You should look for a new player guide on the forum for more infos.

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